tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post5182258883985183203..comments2024-03-29T07:11:17.775+00:00Comments on Evangelical Textual Criticism: Invoice for the sale of First-Century Mark (and more)P.J. Williamshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04388225485348300613noreply@blogger.comBlogger38125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-26182238082727568822019-06-28T18:25:00.202+01:002019-06-28T18:25:00.202+01:00Very important from Jerry Pattengale:
https://www....Very important from Jerry Pattengale:<br />https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2019/june-web-only/first-century-mark-pattengale-inside-saga.html Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-56399625993211484992019-06-28T12:12:20.436+01:002019-06-28T12:12:20.436+01:00phantom --> fathomphantom --> fathomAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-5588403853772447092019-06-26T20:03:16.424+01:002019-06-26T20:03:16.424+01:00Personally, I was under the impression that "...Personally, I was under the impression that "nobody" took the claims of Dan Wallace seriously on this point (at least not as seriously as Wallace took them). I was always under the impression that the speculative date and importance of the fragment (St.Mark in this case) was conviently overemphasized within the context and aftermath of the Erhman/Wallace debate. With that said, it seems something is missing here. I cannot phantom that Obbink would be so careless in such an audacious act of fraud. He may have been set up. Time to sit and watch what mainstream media does with this. My feeling is that the name Hobby Lobby will all but drown out the name of Obbink in the public forum. <br /><br /> -RSAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-6563067407223989672019-06-26T13:56:00.010+01:002019-06-26T13:56:00.010+01:00There were also ethical red flags raised about his...There were also ethical red flags raised about his forthrightness concerning the provenance of the Sappho fragments he supposedly discovered. It's been awhile since I looked into that. The last time I did it seemed like he had successfully answered the questions that had been raised and it had come down to a need to delay the disclosure of some information, which he eventually did. But now in light of this, it may be worth some new looking into to see if that affair also had some opportunities for dishonesty.<br /><br />This happened around the same time that he sold the EES's papyri to Hobby Lobby, and also around the same time that he bought his castle in Texas, which may or may not be a coincidence.Eric Rowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00559055709208918638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-22016537122453543242019-06-26T13:23:04.592+01:002019-06-26T13:23:04.592+01:00Remember the mummy masks too. So, it looks like Ob...Remember the mummy masks too. So, it looks like Obbink may have been selling mummy masks from the Christ Church inventory (?).<br /><br />http://evangelicaltextualcriticism.blogspot.com/2019/01/the-source-of-scott-carrolls-mummy-masks.htmlTimothy N. Mitchellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10696299768205488795noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-65672429668590785382019-06-25T21:08:49.749+01:002019-06-25T21:08:49.749+01:00These are all great points and questions about the...These are all great points and questions about the record cards. Making the record cards for these fragments "disappear" is a possibility. That's also working off of the assumption that no one else connected with Oxford and EES had ever seen these cards and/or the fragments. It would run the risk of a researcher seeing exhibit at MOTB and recognizing it from the Oxyrhynchus collection. Maybe a risk worth taking in the interest of making a profit.<br /><br />But the record cards almost seem "made-to-order" also. As Nongbri points out, it's difficult to believe that a fragment (or fragments) from a first-century codex (or codices) would not attract more attention until recent years.<br /><br />A forged record card with a date of I/II would potentially fit the narrative of the first-century Mark hype. In other words, if others wondered how P.Oxy 5435 was mistaken as first-century, a fabricated card would potentially explain the initial dating and give the illusion that it had always been cataloged and had never been for sale.D. Bradnicknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-14315435161054212152019-06-25T15:17:00.688+01:002019-06-25T15:17:00.688+01:00Statement from the Egypt Exploration Society
http...Statement from the Egypt Exploration Society<br /><br />https://www.ees.ac.uk/news/ees-statement-professor-obbink-and-sales-of-papyri-to-hobby-lobby<br /><br />“We are grateful to Professor Holmes for sharing with us in advance the newly revealed contract and photograph, and we are working with him to clarify whether the four texts in the photographed list, or any other EES papyri, were sold or offered for sale to Hobby Lobby or its agents, and if so, when and by whom. This may take some time, and unless and until new evidence emerges, there is no more we can say.<br /><br />We note that Professor Obbink has not been a General Editor of the Oxyrhynchus Papyri since August 2016”.<br />Tom Hennellnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-26585917782296935632019-06-25T07:17:17.610+01:002019-06-25T07:17:17.610+01:00Methinks there is still more to come in this story...Methinks there is still more to come in this storyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-40750969823578796542019-06-25T07:17:04.933+01:002019-06-25T07:17:04.933+01:00Elementary...Elementary...Timothy N. Mitchellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10696299768205488795noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-77895776712623219322019-06-25T07:14:09.590+01:002019-06-25T07:14:09.590+01:00Thanks for thatThanks for thatAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-13525614012051373962019-06-25T03:22:54.198+01:002019-06-25T03:22:54.198+01:00It should surprise no one that The Case of The Mis...It should surprise no one that The Case of The Missing First Century Mark was solved by Holmes. JoeWallackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10666074795187377455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-83834599627086470122019-06-25T03:22:17.547+01:002019-06-25T03:22:17.547+01:00OK. But the way that's worded could still mean...OK. But the way that's worded could still mean just one photograph, and it could be kept with the record card. I'd like to know more about these. If they only existed in hard copies and not electronically, it seems like somebody who wanted the card and photograph of one or four fragments to disappear could conceivably do that, or at least believe that they could.Eric Rowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13379106188046530722noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-66350885395494653262019-06-25T02:06:01.496+01:002019-06-25T02:06:01.496+01:00The dating of the 4 fragments is interesting. Dr C...The dating of the 4 fragments is interesting. Dr Coles in the early 1980s identified the date of the fragment as "I/II" without his dating being influenced by the identified content of the fragment. This date might be rounded "Circa 0100 AD". The other 3 fragments also have "Circa 0100 AD" in the invoice. Were the other 3 fragments also dated by Dr Coles and were they dated with the contents identified or unidentified?<br /><br />Matthew HamiltonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-22774228057712977362019-06-25T01:54:27.868+01:002019-06-25T01:54:27.868+01:00Rick, on the first page of the redacted PDF, the n...Rick, on the first page of the redacted PDF, the numbers #1 & #2 under "Recitals" are immediately followed by #10 under "Terms and Conditions", suggesting that this redaction includes the top of one page and the bottom of another.<br /><br />The non-blacked out number seems pretty clearly a "9" by comparison with the three "7"s some lines below.Josephinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02979717235299975399noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-52174510142747683502019-06-25T00:17:50.263+01:002019-06-25T00:17:50.263+01:00not just a record card; the EES states that their ...not just a record card; the EES states that their catalogue is supported by photographs of each item:<br /><br />"EES records include a photograph and brief record card for each papyrus awaiting publication, which were prepared to assist the General Editors in selecting papyri for future volumes. The cards were created without detailed study of the texts and without access to today’s online search tools. The record card for 5345, created by Dr Coles in the early 1980s, is marked ‘I/II’, suggesting a late first- or early second-century date. He did not identify it as Mark." Tom Hennellnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-23630801374680945692019-06-24T20:09:30.838+01:002019-06-24T20:09:30.838+01:00I've followed this sad tale for some time. Th...I've followed this sad tale for some time. The retired lawyer in me is tempted to comment on the host of legal and professional questions raised by the events to the extent they're now publicly available. I assume the relevant parties have already obtained legal advice about rights and liabilities. For myself, I'll only say that the publicly available fact situation would make a wonderful law school exam because of its broad range of disparate legal topics.Brucehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05450153258494895306noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-81502379239991941952019-06-24T17:13:08.218+01:002019-06-24T17:13:08.218+01:00They at least had it cataloged on what they call a...They at least had it cataloged on what they call a "record card." The record card for this manuscript had been made long ago (I forget, but I think in the 80's).<br /><br />I would like to know more about these record cards.<br /><br />From what I've heard about how easily Obbink was able to take P. Oxy. fragments that he was researching where he wanted and allow access to them to others, I can imagine that he would have thought it easy enough for some to go missing without his getting caught.<br /><br />However, given that this Mark fragment that he sold was bound to become famous, would not the existence of that record card at the EES have been a smoking gun, proving that the manuscript MOTB had on display would be the same one that was missing from their collection? And if so, then back to my question of just what is the nature of these record cards? Do they (or did they in 2013) only exist as physical cards, with no electronic records of them? And if so, would it have been feasible for this record card to disappear as well? If so, then that possibility increases the likelihood of Obbink being able to believe at that time that he could have pulled this off.Eric Rowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00559055709208918638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-14057453583345717222019-06-24T16:32:03.175+01:002019-06-24T16:32:03.175+01:00The questions I am most interested in now: Was P.O...The questions I am most interested in now: Was P.Oxy. 5345 cataloged by EES in 2012? If so, what was the intention in presenting the fragment for sale?David Floodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04422794596204546035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-14350986292683420392019-06-24T16:25:26.767+01:002019-06-24T16:25:26.767+01:00Indeed.Indeed.Eric Rowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00559055709208918638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-23706949286846769182019-06-24T15:32:36.556+01:002019-06-24T15:32:36.556+01:00Ehrman did say "I believe Obbink is completel...Ehrman did say "I believe Obbink is completely honest and innocent in the whole affair.": https://ehrmanblog.org/non-disclosure-agreements/comment-page-2/ Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-31960206261176187442019-06-24T15:27:58.152+01:002019-06-24T15:27:58.152+01:00Apologies to Bart Ehrman who I incorrectly include...Apologies to Bart Ehrman who I incorrectly included in my earlier (now deleted) comment. Peter M. Headhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03379103292621457026noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-25601593302708161302019-06-24T14:05:39.869+01:002019-06-24T14:05:39.869+01:00A revised comment: it is interesting that everyone...A revised comment: it is interesting that everyone who trusted Obbink has been made to look bad by this: those who trusted his word as an “esteemed” papyrologist, those who trusted his advice as a consultant to the Greek Collection, those who trusted that these manuscripts were legally in his possession, and those who vouched for his personal integrity even when the questions were mounting.Peter M. Headhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03379103292621457026noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-29542441232721716132019-06-24T13:37:56.516+01:002019-06-24T13:37:56.516+01:00Reminds me, a little, of the hitler diariesReminds me, a little, of the hitler diariesRyanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10915737233077999632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-91369312620474086412019-06-24T10:37:24.804+01:002019-06-24T10:37:24.804+01:00Maybe now scholars will return to the habit of ske...Maybe now scholars will return to the habit of skepticism. Especially when unprovenanced trinkets hit the market. And be more interested in facts than fame.Jimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16698562143972216357noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-81594692206959447842019-06-24T10:08:49.545+01:002019-06-24T10:08:49.545+01:00According to Holmes' email, the EES did confir...According to Holmes' email, the EES did confirm that they have fragments that match the description of the Matthew and John fragments in the invoice.<br /><br />The EES statement from 7 March 2019 (https://www.ees.ac.uk/news/unpublished-ees-biblical-papyri) on unpublished biblical fragments said: "Some twenty New Testament inedita have been identified, none of them apparently earlier than the late 2nd to early 3rd century AD. They have all been assigned to editors, and will be published in the Oxyrhynchus Papyri series as the editors complete their work over the next few years."Elijah Hixsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05816323223305820788noreply@blogger.com