tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post1111504004007074353..comments2024-03-29T07:11:17.775+00:00Comments on Evangelical Textual Criticism: Sung: How Kurt Aland Got Two Votes on the UBS CommitteeP.J. Williamshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04388225485348300613noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-67368353108520423862020-11-05T21:38:50.394+00:002020-11-05T21:38:50.394+00:00Once again: counting. According Aland & Aland,...Once again: counting. According Aland & Aland, in Metzger's 'Textual Commentary' 1971 there are 30 "Separatvoten" added (between square brackets) to the editorial comments on variant units. See 'Der Text', 2nd ed. 1989, pp. 43-44, n. 2 and 'The 'Text', 2nd ed. 1989, paperback 1995, p. 34, n. 61. <br />This are Aland & Alands results: Aland 1, Metzger 17, Wikgren 2, Aland & Metzger 1, Metzger & Martini 1, Metzger & Wikgren 8.<br />I recently bought Metzger's of 1971 to check the number of Separatvoten and to compare the data from this edition with those from the corrected 1st ed. 1975 and the 2nd of 1995.<br />In the very first edition I counted 32 Separatvoten. Aland 2, Martini 1, Metzger 16, Wikgren 4, Aland & Metzger 1, Metzger & Wikgren 8.<br />The difference between the numbers of 30 vs 32 can be thus explained. I counted 2 Separatvoten by Aland in stead of 1 and I splitted the 1 vote of Metzger and Martini in the case of 2 Cor. 4,14 in two separate votes. Furthermore I give Metzger 2 votes less and Wikgren 2 votes more then Aland & Aland did.<br /><br />Here is my list. I do hope that Peter Gurry will accept posts with supplementary votes in his blog in the next period. All votes should be counted!<br /><br />Mark 3,32 BMM<br />Mark 10,2 BMM AW<br />Luke 10,1 KA<br />John 1,3-4 BMM <br />John 1,18 AW <br />John 14,7 KA <br />Acts 2,38 BMM <br />Acts 5,28 BMM <br />Acts 10,16 BMM AW<br />Acts 10,17 BMM <br />Acts 10,19 BMM <br />Acts 16,12 KA BMM <br />Acts 25,17 BMM <br />Acts 26,4 BMM <br />Romans 15,33 BMM <br />1Corinth. 6,11 BMM <br />1Corinth. 10,2 BMM AW<br />2Corinth. 1,10 AW <br />2Corinth. 4,6 BMM AW<br />2Corinth. 4,14 BMM <br />2Corinth. 4,14 CMM <br />2Corinth. 5,3 BMM <br />Galatians 1,15 BMM AW<br />Coloss. 1,22 BMM <br />1Thessal. 2,7 BMM AW<br />Hebrews 12,3 AW <br />James 5,20 AW <br />1Peter 1,12 BMM AW<br />1Peter 5,10 BMM <br />2Peter 2,11 BMM <br />Jude 5 BMM AW<br />Apocal. 19,11 BMM Teunis van Lopikhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11497976338547278673noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-87703049703011793092020-10-17T16:09:07.918+01:002020-10-17T16:09:07.918+01:00Frankly, over the years, I have often wondered abo...Frankly, over the years, I have often wondered about the quantity and quality of the input into the TCGNT.<br />Alexander Thomsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09425013355019644838noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-62967196088180426052020-10-17T12:10:21.887+01:002020-10-17T12:10:21.887+01:00Dr. Voobus told me that he had more important thin...Dr. Voobus told me that he had more important things to do than sit around and vote on variants. I was a student of his and obtained a PhD in Syriac at the U. of Chicago under him. He was extremely focused on his numerous discoveries and making more discoveries, which really energized him.Dan McConaughyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16102882743000106210noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-21723923399037450532020-10-09T14:41:59.600+01:002020-10-09T14:41:59.600+01:00Correction:
2 of KA, 1 of CMM, 10 of BMM, 2 of AW,...Correction:<br />2 of KA, 1 of CMM, 10 of BMM, 2 of AW, 1 of KA/BMM, 6 of *BMM/AW*. Teunis van Lopikhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11497976338547278673noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-53553333144371404602020-10-09T10:54:45.598+01:002020-10-09T10:54:45.598+01:00In Metzger's first edition of 'A TC on the...In Metzger's first edition of 'A TC on the GNT' of 1975 (corr.), I counted 22 comments within square brackets, appended to the main discussion and holding a minority opinion. (Maybe there are more!) <br />2 of KA, 1 of CMM, 10 of BMM, 2 of AW, 1 of KA/BMM, 6 of AW. <br /><br />In the case of Acts 16,12 "the majority of the Committee preferred to adopt the conjecture". According to Aland and Metzger "it appears ill-advised to abandon the testimony of [mss]". Clearly, the reading in The GNT (the conjecture) was adopted on the basis of a majoriy vote.Teunis van Lopikhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11497976338547278673noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-80850288597391651082020-10-08T22:14:43.041+01:002020-10-08T22:14:43.041+01:00Teunis, thanks for that link and those names. I re...Teunis, thanks for that link and those names. I recognized all but Carlo. In that case, Steve Selke is correct. A 3-1 vote with Aland voting with the 1 in the minority would result in a 3-4 vote with Aland winning. So he effectively had 3 votes. All he needed was 1 vote to be the decider.Rick Carmicklehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02448389080749739510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-26795035450099054592020-10-08T05:29:16.157+01:002020-10-08T05:29:16.157+01:00As far as I know, God has no stated opinion on the...As far as I know, God has no stated opinion on the number or detail of editorial comments we should provide for a critical edition. So, I’m not sure what would or wouldn’t please him in that respect.Peter Gurryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10396444437216746412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-1001404180269663692020-10-08T02:22:48.777+01:002020-10-08T02:22:48.777+01:00But not the New Testament text?...hmmmBut not the New Testament text?...hmmmAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-63176777608030058092020-10-07T18:54:56.384+01:002020-10-07T18:54:56.384+01:00Certainly for life, yes.Certainly for life, yes.Peter Gurryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10396444437216746412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-67262216763516214982020-10-07T18:25:33.252+01:002020-10-07T18:25:33.252+01:00How about: "ya can't please everyone, but...How about: "ya can't please everyone, but ya got to please God!"Lone Rangernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-50675308175179427212020-10-07T17:42:59.048+01:002020-10-07T17:42:59.048+01:00Here’s the problem: it doesn’t matter how much jus...Here’s the problem: it doesn’t matter how much justification editors give for their decisions, readers always want more. With the ECM, we can actually see every variant relation that the editors decided and, with Acts, we have a textual commentary too. But people still complain about them not explaining themselves more. But an editor has to stop somewhere. Would I like more detail about the UBS decisions? Yes. Do I fault the editors for not giving it to me? No. As Ricky Nelson taught us about editing a Greek New Testament: “ya can’t please everyone, so ya got to please yourself.”Peter Gurryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10396444437216746412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-51185053032676524292020-10-07T15:30:34.829+01:002020-10-07T15:30:34.829+01:00Wikgren seems indeed to have been a man of indepen...Wikgren seems indeed to have been a man of independent mind and spirit. See my earlier query re his dissident note at John 1:18 - I wonder to what else he dissented.Alexander Thomsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09425013355019644838noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-90420370625382041622020-10-07T15:21:58.615+01:002020-10-07T15:21:58.615+01:00Have any UBS insiders ever disclosed more specific...Have any UBS insiders ever disclosed more specifically what criteria were used for their grades beyond what is written about them in the introductions to the various UBS editions and Metzger's commentary? I believe that a C grade was described as something like, "the committee had difficulty making a decision," and a D grade was something like, "the committee had great difficulty making a decision."<br /><br />I wonder if the D grade indicates places where the opinion of only a minority of the committee (i.e. Aland and one other) was printed in the main text over the objection of a majority.Eric Rowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13379106188046530722noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-77109596089355753772020-10-06T20:19:33.515+01:002020-10-06T20:19:33.515+01:00Klaus Junack is sitting on the left. He is was not...Klaus Junack is sitting on the left. He is was not a Committee member. Move with the mouse on the picture (late 80's?, on https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:GNT-Committee.jpg) from right to left and see the names of Carlo Maria Martini, Kurt Aland, Allen Wikgren, Bruce Metzger, Matthew Black and Klaus Junack.Teunis van Lopikhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11497976338547278673noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-776612225385808682020-10-06T18:54:14.142+01:002020-10-06T18:54:14.142+01:00The photograph of the UBS committee in the link ab...The photograph of the UBS committee in the link above includes six members, five plus Aland. So a 3-2 vote is without Aland's first vote cast. His two-vote support for the minority position then made it 3-4 (Aland wins).Rick Carmicklehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02448389080749739510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-49896155436130863372020-10-05T19:43:21.170+01:002020-10-05T19:43:21.170+01:00On p. *11* Aland said about the first meetings of ...On p. *11* Aland said about the first meetings of the Committee ...Teunis van Lopikhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11497976338547278673noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-22082791390574131682020-10-05T19:06:03.938+01:002020-10-05T19:06:03.938+01:00Metzger, Vööbus and Wikgren.
I refer to K. Aland&...Metzger, Vööbus and Wikgren.<br /><br />I refer to K. Aland's 'The Present Position of New Testament Textual Criticism', a paper read on the International Congress on The Four Gospels in 1957, that is published as Studia evangelica. (Papers presented to the International Congress on "The four gospels in 1957" held at Christ Church, Oxford, 1957). [Ed. by Kurt Aland ... et al.]. Berlin: Akademie-Verlag, 1959. <br />I quote from the edition The Gospels reconsidered : a selection of papers read at the International Congress on the Four Gospels in 1957. Oxford: Blackwell, 1960, pp. 1-15.<br />On p. 1 Aland said about the first meetings of the Committee:<br />"After preliminary duscussions the editiorial committee met for its first working session in the autumn of last year [1956]. It includes three Americans: Bruce M. Metzger (Princeton), Arthur Vööbus (Maywood, Allan F. Wikgren (Chicago, one British scholar: Matthew Black (St. Andrews), and one German: Kurt Aland (Halle-Berlin). This year [1957] they have had a second session and is planned to have further sessions at least during the next four years. In the beginning of 1958 we hope to see in print a booklet explaining the aims and giving details of the work."<br />From the first draft of that booklet Aland said: "The number of variants mentioned will be confined to about two or three thousand (in comparison with the 10,000 of the Nestle)." Are the'heftige Diskussionen' the reason that only 1,400 variants are in UBS1?<br /><br />Vöobus is the one who retired from the Committee after four years and obviously Wikgren is the Amercian who 'immer wieder mit dem Gedanken des Rücktritts spielte'. <br />Teunis van Lopikhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11497976338547278673noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-67935498405803056352020-10-05T17:32:56.517+01:002020-10-05T17:32:56.517+01:00Very interesting, Tuenis. Thanks for sharing. Who ...Very interesting, Tuenis. Thanks for sharing. Who exactly are the 3 Americans though? Metzger, Wikgren, and Nida?Peter Gurryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10396444437216746412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-83844534318480698912020-10-05T15:43:44.517+01:002020-10-05T15:43:44.517+01:00UBS1 preface: "The Editorial Committee which ...UBS1 preface: "The Editorial Committee which was responsible for preparing this edition consisted of Kurt Aland, Matthew Black, Bruce M. Metzger and Alien Wikgren, with the participation of Arthur Voobus during the first part of the work. The project was initiated, organized and administered by Eugene A. Nida, who also took part in Committee discussions, especially those relating to major decisions of policy and method. J. Harold Greenlee and Robert P. Markham, as secretaries of the Committee, handled a mass of detail with skill and competence."<br /><br />Were the committee members who resigned after various "heated discussions" Wikgren and Vööbus?<br /><br />Also, since Greenlee and Markham were recording secretaries of the committee, it would be interesting if notes regarding the "heated discussions" that led to such resignations were somewhere available as a point of history. Do they still exist? Maurice A. Robinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05685965674144539571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-85315527178476817362020-10-05T08:58:02.989+01:002020-10-05T08:58:02.989+01:00Maybe less known is what Prof K. Aland wrote about...Maybe less known is what Prof K. Aland wrote about working with three (!) Americans in the Committee in 'Die Grundurkunde des Glaubens: ein Bericht über 40 Jahre Arbeit an ihrem Text' in Bericht der HermanKunst-Stiftung zur Förderung der neutetsamentlichen Textforschung für die Jahre 1982 bis 1984. Münster, 1985, pp. 15-16:<br /><br />Die Arbeiten [= Collations for NA] waren<br />bereits fortgeschritten, auch die der Textkonstitution, als mich die Aufforderung<br />von Eugene A. Nida erreichte, in das Herausgeberkomitee des<br />GNT einzutreten. Zwar hatten hier die Amerikaner - in Verfolgung der<br />ursprünglichen Pläne - mit drei Mitgliedern die Mehrheit, aber außer dem<br />Deutschen war auch ein Engländer, genauer gesagt: Schotte, zusätzlich<br />aufgefordert worden. Der Mittelpunkt und Motor des Ganzen war der<br />zuständige Abteilungsleiter der ABS, Eugene A. Nida, was die Voraussetzung<br />dafür war, daß das Unternehmen zu einem glücklichen Ende kommen<br />konnte. Mehr als 10 Jahre lang sind wir - meist in den USA - alljährlich<br />zu 6wöchigen konzentrierten Beratungen zusammengetroffen,<br />in der Zwischenzeit erfolgten die Materialbereitstellung fur die nächste<br />Tagung und die Ausführung der Beschlüsse der letzten. Auch das geschah<br />vor allem in den USA, je länger je mehr verlagerten sich Teile der Arbeit<br />aber nach Münster.<br />Meine Lage war schwierig: einerseits liefen - mit ausdrücklicher Zustimmung<br />aller Beteiligten - die Arbeiten an der Neubearbeitung des Nestle<br />weiter, deren Resultate ich selbstverständlich in die Beratungen für den<br />Text des GNT einbrachte. Andererseits sammelte ich bei den Diskussionen<br />des Herausgeberkomitees Einsichten und Erfahrungen, die oft nur in<br />bewegtem Hin und Her und nicht am stillen Schreibtisch zu erlangen<br />sind. Vorläufig schien es jedenfalls so, daß das Herausgeberkomitee<br />infolge seiner Stimmenmehrheit (über jede Entscheidung wurde abgestimmt)<br />einen Text herstellen würde, der zu sehr vom mechanisch ange-.<br />wandten Prinzip »die kürzere Lesart ist die richtige«, von den<br />Anschauungen von Sodens und Vogels' und von der Voraussetzung der<br />fortdauernden Unfehlbarkeit Westcotts und Horts bestimmt wäre. Erst<br />nach heftigen Diskussionen, bei denen ein amerikanisches Mitglied ausschied<br />und ein zweites immer wieder mit dem Gedanken des Rücktritts<br />spielte, bewegten sich die beiden Ausgaben mehr aufeinander zu, allerdings<br />noch so, daß sie weit von einer Deckung entfernt waren, und Prälat<br />Schlatter mich immer wieder bedrängte, doch den neuen Nestle separat<br />abzuschließen und zu veröffentlichen. Als 1966 schließlich termingemäß<br />die erste Ausgabe des Greek New Testament erschien, war diese Frage<br />immer noch nicht entschieden. Aber es gelang, in der 2. Ausgabe des<br />GNT von 1968 neben einer Reihe anderer Probleme vor allem die der sog.<br />Western non-interpolations zufriedenstellend zu regeln. So konnte für die<br />3. Ausgabe schließlich all das an Textunterschieden zur Debatte gestellt<br />werden, was vom neuen Nestle her noch an Textdifferenzen vorlag. In<br />dieser dritten Ausgabe von 1975 ist dann die Einheit der beiden Texte endgültig<br />hergestellt worden. Ohne die ständige Unterstützung, die Erfahrung<br />und die Weisheit von Eugene A. Nida wäre das nicht möglich gewesen.<br />Er hatte in den vieljährigen Diskussionen des Komitees immer wieder<br />eine entscheidende Rolle gespielt, ohne ihn wäre der Plan schon in einem<br />frühen Stadium gescheitert. Er hat auch dafür Sorge getragen,'daß die<br />Ausgabe nicht bei der American Bible Society geblieben ist, obwohl diese<br />alle Vorarbeiten finanziert hatte, sondern an die United Bible Societies<br />weitergegeben wurde.Teunis van Lopikhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11497976338547278673noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-2473824088144526112020-10-04T04:42:23.146+01:002020-10-04T04:42:23.146+01:00Like Elijah on Mt Carmel: in the still, small voic...Like Elijah on Mt Carmel: in the still, small voice. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-6280084951725545292020-10-04T01:26:00.771+01:002020-10-04T01:26:00.771+01:00Where is God in any of this?Where is God in any of this?Matthew M. Rosenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-28884023173188782172020-10-03T17:20:23.715+01:002020-10-03T17:20:23.715+01:00That's fine, but it's probably more in lin...That's fine, but it's probably more in line with the truth than most would allow nowadays, and it was meant to be funny--not sexist! <br /><br />And you fellas may want to steer clear from the OT if you think that comment was sexist or offensive. <br /><br />Quick question, who gave Mr. Kurt Aland the authority to have ANY vote on what the Greek NT and subsequent English translations should or shouldn't read? It seems to me like it was simply a human endeavor, and his second vote was quite frankly strong-armed from other MEN who apparently had no power or guts to stand against the almighty Aland. The sooner that fine, intelligent, Christian men think through these obvious problems, the sooner NTTC can finally turn the corner.Roy Hobbsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-50391931806618746912020-10-03T15:22:16.228+01:002020-10-03T15:22:16.228+01:00Sexists comments will get deleted, Roy. Sexists comments will get deleted, Roy. Peter Gurryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10396444437216746412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-80107999029236199472020-10-03T14:46:30.243+01:002020-10-03T14:46:30.243+01:00This offensive comment should be removed. This offensive comment should be removed. Robertnoreply@blogger.com