tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post789627556733006600..comments2024-03-29T07:11:17.775+00:00Comments on Evangelical Textual Criticism: Defining the Byzantine TextP.J. Williamshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04388225485348300613noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-86931620579560261742017-09-08T02:55:48.040+01:002017-09-08T02:55:48.040+01:00Late, but yes I mean without! The ECM definitions...Late, but yes I mean without! The ECM definitions are actually contradictory. Of course no one associated with Muenster can say that.<br />TimTimothy Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06641788186736340533noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-86185669005568426472016-06-07T21:48:03.223+01:002016-06-07T21:48:03.223+01:00Do you mean the ECM cannot define the Byz text *wi...Do you mean the ECM cannot define the Byz text *without* circular reasoning? If so, I don't see the circularity.Peter Gurryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10396444437216746412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-44922492383441270692016-06-07T19:54:06.786+01:002016-06-07T19:54:06.786+01:00Peter Gurry,
It appears that even the ECM can not...Peter Gurry,<br /><br />It appears that even the ECM can not define the Byzantine text with circular reasoning! This make a specified definition all the more necessary when speaking about text types. Porter and Pitts seem to assume we will know that distinctively Byzantine means readings that are not also included in Western or Alexandrian texts.Archepoimenfollowerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539020156250047772noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-43706040632808455152016-02-05T20:20:10.907+00:002016-02-05T20:20:10.907+00:00Apparently lost sight of in this discussion is the...Apparently lost sight of in this discussion is the definitional concept of what constitutes a "distinctively Byzantine reading". The claim originates with Hort (except that he termed the Byzantine "Syrian"), and is defined by him (quite reasonably) as a particular reading that appears among the later (post-AD 350) Byzantine MSS but which is not present in the early 4th century Aleph or B, nor appears in any early version or church father prior to AD 350 (this date plus or minus ca. 50 years).<br /><br />It was this particular definition that Sturz addressed in his dissertation, and that definition still can be used with profit today. <br /><br />Given these parameters, the actual <i>number</i> of "distinctively Byzantine readings" ends up painfully few, since nearly all readings found within the Byzantine Textform have at least <i>some</i> early support from versions and fathers, even if as Dr Carlson points out, the specific <i>pattern</i> of Byzantine readings otherwise is not found among the more limited geographical scope reflected in those early witnesses.Maurice A. Robinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05685965674144539571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-25506954303628158312016-02-05T13:34:40.006+00:002016-02-05T13:34:40.006+00:00Stephen,
For a different take then Snapp, Kruger ...Stephen, <br />For a different take then Snapp, Kruger reviewed it on his blog, 'Canon Fodder' in November, 2015.<br /><br />TimArchepoimenfollowerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539020156250047772noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-90379506633923558112016-02-05T00:36:48.044+00:002016-02-05T00:36:48.044+00:00Stephen Carlson,
I reviewed Porter & Pitt...Stephen Carlson, <br /><br />I reviewed Porter & Pitt's book at <br />http://www.thetextofthegospels.com/2015/12/a-review-of-fundamentals-of-new.html .<br /><br />James Snapp Jrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09493891380752272603noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-75823561001457036842016-02-05T00:20:31.058+00:002016-02-05T00:20:31.058+00:00Thank you, Peter! Spot-on.
The circularity of how...Thank you, Peter! Spot-on.<br /><br />The circularity of how "distinctively Byzantine" (formerly "distinctively Syrian") has been used for 135 years is a glaring example of the logic difficulty that manifests in textual criticism circles.<br /><br />And I wrote on this in the following posts:<br /><br />[TC-Alternate-list] Kenyon mangles Hort on the ECW distinctively Byzantine readings <br />Steven Avery - June 11, 2011<br />https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/TC-Alternate-list/conversations/topics/4255 <br /><br />[TC-Alternate-list] distinctively Byzantine - a phrase distinctly from the Hortian Fog <br />Steven Avery - Oct 28, 2011<br />https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/TC-Alternate-list/conversations/topics/4668<br /><br />"by definition no "distinctly Byzantine" readings can be early, by definition. Once an early writer like Origen or Tertullian quotes a variant, that fact alone will remove it from the Hortian category.<br /><br />====<br /><br />Steven Avery<br />Dutchess County, NYSteven Averyhttp://www.purebibleforum.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-29736735071888825762016-02-04T22:23:58.527+00:002016-02-04T22:23:58.527+00:00Has this book been reviewed? I haven't read th...Has this book been reviewed? I haven't read the thing, but this quotation makes me very concerned (being right for the wrong reasons).Stephen C. Carlsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12327519459656394690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-2396230233935130662016-02-04T22:20:10.971+00:002016-02-04T22:20:10.971+00:00Indeed, Sturz used readings in P45 to argue that (...Indeed, Sturz used readings in P45 to argue that (many) Byzantine readings were early, but critics countered that there's a difference between the age of the readings and the age of a text (a specific sequence of readings).Stephen C. Carlsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12327519459656394690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-87803823024397308302016-02-04T11:50:02.770+00:002016-02-04T11:50:02.770+00:00Well put. To illustrate the point, before the publ...Well put. To illustrate the point, before the publication of P45 there was a whole set of distinctively Byzantine readings in Luke that did not have support from before the fourth century. These readings stopped being distinctively Byzantine after P45.<br />However, I have an intuitive reluctance to treating the text of a witness as nothing more than a collection of readings or of variation units. Somehow, a text is more than that.Dirk Jongkindhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06759927266909478390noreply@blogger.com