tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post3135293876257086284..comments2024-03-17T17:46:24.354+00:00Comments on Evangelical Textual Criticism: SBL Boston, Payne on the "Umlauts" in VaticanusP.J. Williamshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04388225485348300613noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-81630760289816589662008-12-03T07:41:00.000+00:002008-12-03T07:41:00.000+00:00Daniel, we know that Origen used various signs rel...Daniel, we know that Origen used various signs relating to textual criticism, but the question here was whether the Umlaut sign, two parallell horizontal dots, in Vaticanus was unique (and, hence, the new term coined by Payne). You suggested that Origen used Umlauts, but he apparently did not. He used other signs. (In fact I have seen a number of different signs in MSS to mark the presence of textual variants, but that was not the point, was it?)Tommy Wassermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10674769923361035721noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-54365961937717362252008-12-03T07:17:00.000+00:002008-12-03T07:17:00.000+00:00Please note that there are also umlauts and other ...Please note that there are also umlauts and other signs in the OT of Vaticanus. I find it rather strange that nobody is analyzing them. <BR/>They may be crucial for our understanding.Wieland Willkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02376942788228063430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-3860608487263581712008-12-02T22:57:00.000+00:002008-12-02T22:57:00.000+00:00"hexaplaric obelus sign"In other words, an indicat..."hexaplaric obelus sign"<BR/><BR/>In other words, an indicator of a textual variant between the Hebrew and Greek--in this case, a combined umlaut and metobelus. <BR/><BR/>Might not the umlauts in Vaticanus reference textual differences in an extinct Syriac text?<BR/><BR/>There is a website with a plate containing unmistakable umlauts in this codex but I have a feeling it's about to be debunked. It's halfway down this page:<BR/><BR/>http://adultera.awardspace.com/TEXT/diacrit.html#02Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-69949132954104291052008-12-02T22:05:00.000+00:002008-12-02T22:05:00.000+00:00Dear Daniel, those are certainly not Umlauts. The ...Dear Daniel, those are certainly not Umlauts. The horizontal lines at the end of lines 9 and 11 in the first column indicate final nu, which is quite common. The middle of line 4 in column 2 is a hexaplaric obelus sign that Origen used to mark words (or paragraphs) in the LXX which were not represented in the Hebrew.Tommy Wassermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10674769923361035721noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-65528646276829027862008-12-02T20:18:00.000+00:002008-12-02T20:18:00.000+00:00Google Books has it online.Page 80 unfortunately i...Google Books has it online.<BR/>Page 80 unfortunately is currently in lacunate status but page 81 is extant. I now see that many of what looked like interlinear umlauts are actually the overlines of NS (apparently referring to Joshua), but check out the ends of lines 9 and 11 in the first column, and the middle of line 4 in the second column.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-79074433852305319842008-12-02T03:44:00.000+00:002008-12-02T03:44:00.000+00:00Thanks for calling attention to Codex Colberto-Sar...Thanks for calling attention to Codex Colberto-Sarravianus in Metzger's "Manuscripts of the Greek Bible." However, looking at the plate, I can't see anything like the "umlauts" that Payne has identified in Codex Vaticanus.Stephen C. Carlsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18239379955876245197noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-78985644741456439782008-12-01T19:55:00.000+00:002008-12-01T19:55:00.000+00:00"No other MS has been shown to contain Umlauts ind..."No other MS has been shown to contain Umlauts indicating textual variants, according to Payne. . . he had coined the term because it referred to a unique sign and therefore not known until recently in papyrology"<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>In the first place, marginal notations of doubtful text are nothing new; we posess the precise information that 276 copies of John contain them in the margin alongside the text of the PA. What isn't often pointed out is that several of the oldest mss, Aleph and B among them, contain similar markings at the insertion-point where the ms OMITS the PA. <BR/><BR/>More to the point, however, is that Origen used umlauts in his Hexapla to show words that were in his source text (LXX) but not in the text he used for comparison (the MT). Either Payne is unaware of the plates of Codex Colberto-Sarravianus, umlauts and all, in Metzger's "Manuscripts of the Greek Bible," or he must have been carefully parsing his words, a la Ehrman, to the effect that he doesn't consider these to be text-critical notations.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-24661307892895984482008-11-28T16:46:00.000+00:002008-11-28T16:46:00.000+00:00Good to hear that, Peter! That the umlauts are tha...Good to hear that, Peter! <BR/>That the umlauts are that old is against all we know of these times. I, too, remain very skeptical. <BR/><BR/>My pet theory is that one day a prospective member of a fraternity decided to create some new parchment by washing an old worn-out codex. <BR/>When the abbot learned what the novice had done he ordered him to carefully retrace everything during the rest of his life.Wieland Willkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02376942788228063430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-32299594012804788812008-11-28T16:08:00.000+00:002008-11-28T16:08:00.000+00:00For earlier essays by Payne on this subject see ht...For earlier essays by Payne on this subject see http://www.linguistsoftware.com/payneessays.htmPeter M. Headhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03379103292621457026noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-34711939838067873552008-11-28T16:06:00.001+00:002008-11-28T16:06:00.001+00:00Oh, and I thought he said $5,999.Oh, and I thought he said $5,999.Peter M. Headhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03379103292621457026noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-30788782501876928262008-11-28T16:06:00.000+00:002008-11-28T16:06:00.000+00:00Good summary Tommy,My impression: I liked Philip's...Good summary Tommy,<BR/><BR/>My impression: I liked Philip's enthusiasm and genuiness. It was an interesting paper with a useful handout listing all 51 of these supposed examples. Lacking any images made it difficult to actually address. I remain fairly unpersuaded that these are as ancient as has been proposed (the use of statistics is generally a sign of forthcoming implausibilities). I would put them in the XVIth century myself.Peter M. Headhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03379103292621457026noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-85061633480596548322008-11-28T13:53:00.000+00:002008-11-28T13:53:00.000+00:00It was nice meeting you too, Tommy. I had to ask ...It was nice meeting you too, Tommy. I had to ask Larry Hurtado to identify you when you were asking a question.Stephen C. Carlsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18239379955876245197noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-3914782820571254032008-11-28T03:09:00.000+00:002008-11-28T03:09:00.000+00:00Thanks Tommy for these very helpful notes and comm...Thanks Tommy for these very helpful notes and comments.James M. Leonardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06064939564477543675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-75509082922628566662008-11-27T19:45:00.000+00:002008-11-27T19:45:00.000+00:00Tommy: According to Payne, the presence of an Umla...Tommy: According to Payne, the presence of an Umlaut on the page where the PA is omitted is the earliest evidence for its existence at this location .... Payne thinks the evidence is important for its antiquity.<BR/><BR/>Except that I have long maintained (<I>contra</I> Payne) that the supposed PA umlaut at 7:52 actually points to the very real EGHGERTAI/EGEIRETAI variant, and <I>not</I> to the presence of the PA in the comparing MS. <BR/><BR/>On the other hand, the (very faint) umlaut that appears following the <I>end</I> of John's gospel seems clearly to indicate the presence of the PA at <I>that</I> location in the comparing MS.Payne either ignores or is unaware of that particular umlaut.maurice a robinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06207682737855397058noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-12227639733369665372008-11-27T18:04:00.000+00:002008-11-27T18:04:00.000+00:00Stephen,thanks for your comment. I will correct th...Stephen,<BR/><BR/>thanks for your comment. I will correct the reference to chi-square, and the price. <BR/><BR/>It was very nice to finally meet you there in Boston, and to meet the "real person" behind the name, which I have known for almost a decade.Tommy Wassermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10674769923361035721noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17859011.post-51707392468026083572008-11-27T17:38:00.000+00:002008-11-27T17:38:00.000+00:00Hi Tommy, just a couple of comments:1. I thought t...Hi Tommy, just a couple of comments:<BR/><BR/>1. I thought the price was $5990 or something like it.<BR/><BR/>2. It's a "chi-square" analysis. The validity of it depends on the assumptions in setting up the test. I'd have to see the write-up to know whether the test was set up properly.<BR/><BR/>3. I really wish that there was some name other than "umlaut," and it would have been very nice if he called attention to any other MS with this notation.<BR/><BR/>4. As for whether the umlauts show awareness of the two major variants that Payne focused on, the umlauts at 1 Cor. 14:33 and John 7:52 could indicate two variants listed in Tischendorf but not in Nestle-Aland. In other words, there may well be a variant at those places, but not the ones in N-A.Stephen C. Carlsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18239379955876245197noreply@blogger.com